Talk:Kashgar

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Bias[edit]

This article is incomplete, missing citations and appears biased. It should be locked so that only signed in account users can edit it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grace321 (talkcontribs) 19:11, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree and the Transport section making it seem like its merging with Pakistan, I'm Pakistani and yet I find all those references annoying and unnecessary. 139.190.138.225 (talk) 18:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Maps[edit]

There are some nice maps here that are suitably out of date - perhaps we could send an email and grab some high res versions... prat 06:08, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Culture[edit]

Silk culture and carpet manufacture have flourished for ages at Khotan, and the products always find a ready sale at Kashgar. Other manufactures consist of a strong coarse cotton cloth called kham (which forms the dress of the common people, and for winter wear is padded with cotton and quilted), boots and shoes, saddlery, felts, furs and sheepskins made up into cloaks, and various articles of domestic use. A curious street sight in Kashgar is presented by the hawkers of meat pies, pastry and sweetmeats, which they trundle about on hand-harrows just as their counterparts do in Europe; while the knife-grinder's cart, and the vegetable seller with his tray or basket on his head, recall exactly similar itinerant traders further west.

The foregoing was removed by a user; I preserve it here in the hope that if can be reworked in an acceptable fashion and returned to the article. --Dpr 05:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

History[edit]

"Previously the city consisted of two towns, Kona Sheher or "old city", and Yengi Sheher or "new city", about 5 miles (8 km) apart, separated from one another by the Kyzyl Su (literally: "Red River"), a tributary of the [[Tarim]] river. The division is now less distinct. [[Image:Kashgar road scene, 1870s.jpg|thumb|360px|Kashgar road scene, 1870s]] Kona Sheher is a small fortified city on high ground overlooking the Tuman river. Its walls are lofty and supported by buttress bastions with loopholed turrets at intervals; the fortifications, however, are but of hard clay and are much out of repair. The city contains about 2,500 houses. Beyond the bridge, a little way off, are the ruins of ancient Kashgar, which once covered a large extent of country on both sides of the Tuman, and the walls of which even now (in 1911) are 12 feet (3.7m) wide at the top and twice that in height. This city - Aski Shahr (Old Town) as it is now called - was destroyed in [[1514]] by [[Mirza Ababakar]] ([[Abubekr]]) on the approach of [[Sultan Said Khan]]'s army. About two miles to the north beyond the river is the shrine of [[Hazrat Afak]], the saint king of the country, who died and was buried here in 1693. It is a handsome mausoleum faced with blue and white glazed tiles, standing under the shade of some magnificent silver poplars. Around it [[Yakub Beg]] erected a commodious college, mosque and monastery, the whole being surrounded by rich orchards, fruit gardens and vineyards. The Yengi Sheher of Kashgar was, as its name implies, relatively modern, having been built in [[1838]]. It was of oblong shape running north and south, and was entered by a single gateway. The walls were about 10 metres (33 ft) high, of adobe brick and topped by turrets, while on each side was a projecting bastion. The walls were reportedly wide enough at the top for a two-wheeled cart. The whole was surrounded by a deep and wide ditch, which could be filled from the river, at the risk, however, of bringing down the whole structure, for the walls were of mud, and standing upon a porous sandy soil. When the Communists took power they destroyed the walls. Before [[Yakub Beg]]'s seized power from the Chinese, Yengi Sheher held a garrison of 6,000 men, and was the residence of the ''amban'' or governor. Yakub erected his ''orda'' or palace on the site of the amban's residence, and two hundred ladies of his [[harem (husehold)|harem]] occupied a commodious enclosure nearby. The population of Kashgar was estimated (not long before 1911) at 60,000 in the Kona Sheher and only 2,000 in the Yengi Sheher. "


I have removed this part because it doesn't really fit into the article and most of it is irrelevant. Please incorporate the remaining notable facts into the article, thanks. Aran|heru|nar 10:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

In the Tang section (of the History section) I think the mention of Wukong is incorrect; I suspect it refers to the classic 16th century Chinese novel "Journey to the West", which re-tells and embellishes the story of the Chinese pilgriim monk Xuanzang. I think Wukong (or Sun Wukong) is a character in the 16th century novel; he is also known as the Monkey King, or simply "Monkey" in Arthur Waley's translation. If I am wrong, please tell me, and insert a citation. Otherwise, please delete this brief paragraph. 2601:8C1:C180:1F40:E038:AB64:F561:1410 (talk) 02:28, 15 January 2020 (UTC)Michael McNaughton mcnaught@unm.edu January 14, 2020.

“Cascar”[edit]

"Cascar" must be an obsolete spelling. Which sources use it?

I think this spelling is too obscure to have a redirection from "Cascar" to "Kashgar" in stead of "CASCAR". —Babelfisch 06:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Bias[edit]

This article is heavily bias towards China and Chinese rule over Xinjiang/Kashgar and portrays everything from the perspective of Chinese dominion in Kashgar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.117.71.132 (talk) 04:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Which bias is expected? Kashgar/Kashi is part of China, not part of India, USA, Vietnam or any other country. --Atitarev (talk) 12:28, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

yweah.......it is china —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.51.77.250 (talk) 10:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It may be in China, but given that Kashgar is a Muslim Uyghur city, it's not only the view of the Communist govt, nor the view of what is good for the Han people, that is important. With clashes between locals and police, and the threats to demolish the old city, there are multiple views here. LordAmeth (talk) 22:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree with both points, first Kashgar is in China (with no critical political tension, correct me if i am wrong) so it shouldn't be considered "bias" since that's the Chinese perspective. Second point as some mentioned, to include the "local" perspective which may be different, it should be clearly pointed out what need revision and new material should be suggested, in order to improve, with explicit and clear sources and citations. hameed (talk) 12:25, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
that's because china is the only one that recorded detail history back then. the local language spoken back then in this region is dead.
"but given that Kashgar is a Muslim Uyghur city" it isn't, it is a persian buddhist city that was conquered by the uyghur from the north.
go play crusader king and see where the uyghur actually starts off at, it pretty much an established and agreed fact that the turk invaded the region a 1000 year ago. the region is originally buddhist and part of the kushan empire and is therefore more persian-iranian than turkish. the Uyghur nationalist has been incorrectly claiming the persian-iranian heritage as their own because as they claim they use the same word as those historic script, but that is only because the Uyghur later copied those word and use them, those word were not original to Uyghur(it as silly as claiming tofu is british because it is a valid word in english now). the reality is the region were fought for between the persian buddhist and the turk muslim, with tibetan and chinese picking sides from time to time which eventually lead to the region becoming a vassal state of china only because the alternative is to be ruled by muslim who would forcefully convert them into muslim. that at least under "chinese protection" they could ironically practise their own religion. that is the historical context. and they ain't wrong, not long after the chinese left, they were conquered by the muslim and forced to convert which is why we have the reality today. 58.182.210.94 (talk) 16:03, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

It is technically in China but given the current controversies, including political unrest, heavy surveillance and persecution of the Muslim minority there, it seems that worries about pro-Chinese bias or only presenting one side (the government sanctioned side, of course) are valid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.74.210.198 (talk) 12:44, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Link[edit]

I took the liberty of adding a photo link since shows much of the backstreet and local life within the city (with the Uyghur people) rather than the other link that is there at the moment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.138.1.34 (talk) 15:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I love the pics. Are u the owner of those pics?? Docku:“what up?” 15:19, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Chinese name[edit]

Kashi (喀什) is only an abbreviation. The full name is Kashige'er (喀什噶尔/喀什噶爾), and needs to be mentioned somewhere here. I don't know about placement? someone care to add? 华钢琴49 (TALK) 14:34, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

saw it in the 'names' section. but shouldn't the full name also be in the intro? 华钢琴49 (TALK) 14:46, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Restore of Han part of history[edit]

This section started with an unfinished sentence (it got that way from Smackbot on 1-11.) and then a new section 'Buddhism' was dropped into the middle of the Han section. I didn't try to sort that out -- maybe 'Buddhism' needs to be a subsection or a different section -- noticed some vandalism between then and now -- just restored it to prior to Smackbot. Twang (talk) 12:02, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Ordu Kend = Kashgar[edit]

Ordu Kend = another name of Kashgar, source: "Eski Türklerde Şehircilik" (by Faruk Sümer). Here it says: p.:81 Ordu Kend Türklerin Kaşgar'a verdikleri isimdir. Böri (talk) 06:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Temporary marriage in nineteenth century kashgar[edit]

Temporary marriare was pradtices by sunni turkic muslims in Kashgar (we know its in violation of sunni sharia but the mullahs in the city approve of it anyway). It was common in the nineteenth century for muslim turkic women in kashgar to arrange temporary marriages with merchants, soldiers , and other travelers in the city, inculding non muslims, like indians, russians, and chinese as well as muslims andijani uzbeks.

Modern historians like Ildiko Beller-Hann and Linda Benson wrot about this practice in Kashgar.

Temporary marriage kashgar

http://books.google.com/books?id=pkZMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA771#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=9_oaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA771#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=U4BEAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA354#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=dWlCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA41#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=mCS1940T5MkC&pg=PA41

http://books.google.com/books?id=pkZMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA771#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z7wvAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA114#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=4FoDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA591#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=rpzNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA591#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=QTBXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA591#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=uNFNae81Pw8C&pg=PA181#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=cSIXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA181#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=krsMAAAAIAAJ&q=respectable+divorce+temporary+legal+marriages#search_anchor http://books.google.com/books?id=gx8eAQAAMAAJ&q=respectable+divorce+temporary+legal+marriages#search_anchor http://books.google.com/books?id=-TgPAAAAIAAJ&q=respectable+divorce+temporary+legal+marriages#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?id=0IABAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA178#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=HyrVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=q3kOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA200#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=yBoRAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA200#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=1emXJemW-jgC&pg=PT613#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=6K7PWYxF5yAC&pg=PA617#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=BWmx7FjtQ3AC&pg=PA193#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=RhE5ZUcZ_Q4C&pg=PA193#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=7ULYAAAAMAAJ&q=Chaukans+kashgar&dq=Chaukans+kashgar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=O9avUL_XC8P30gH-pIGICQ&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBg http://books.google.com/books?id=8ByAAAAAMAAJ&q=Chaukans+kashgar&dq=Chaukans+kashgar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=O9avUL_XC8P30gH-pIGICQ&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBw http://books.google.com/books?id=cMYeAAAAIAAJ&q=Chaukans+kashgar&dq=Chaukans+kashgar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=O9avUL_XC8P30gH-pIGICQ&ved=0CFgQ6AEwCA http://books.google.com/books?id=taJZ433OqJIC&pg=PA267#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=BC5yAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA65#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=BC5yAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA189#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=BC5yAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA312#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=BC5yAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA313#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=6sQTAAAAIAAJ&q=Temporary+marriage+kashgar&dq=Temporary+marriage+kashgar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XeivUM2LIoKB0AHDwoHQDw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBThk

http://books.google.com/books?id=7hc3AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA49#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=S-QpAQAAMAAJ&q=temporary+marriage+kashgar+khotan#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?ei=DtqvUJ2fNqrD0AHBnoHACA&id=VxMbAAAAYAAJ&q=degrading+temporary#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?ei=DtuvUI24NsKB0AGa0YGgDQ&id=OV1DAAAAYAAJ&q=temporary+marriages+divorce#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?id=OV1DAAAAYAAJ&q=degrading+temporary#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?id=yjkwAQAAIAAJ&q=temporary+marriage#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?ei=j-GvUImoEOy30QHE_YCoDQ&id=_V0eAAAAMAAJ&q=temporary+marriage#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?ei=juKvUO7gN86N0QHpmoHoDQ&id=Lp0PAQAAMAAJ&q=temporary+marriage#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?ei=juKvUO7gN86N0QHpmoHoDQ&id=db4qAAAAMAAJ&q=temporary+marriage#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?id=SO1tAAAAMAAJ&q=temporary+marriage#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?id=iqNJAAAAYAAJ&q=temporary+marriages#search_anchor http://books.google.com/books?id=hIdCAAAAYAAJ&q=temporary+marriages#search_anchor

Less than half the children were orphans in the ordinary sense, without either father or mother living; the rest were victims of the unfortunate temporary marriage system prevalent throughout Kashgaria-—-honorary orphans, as it were . Trouble ...

126 http://books.google.com/books?id=1NEmAQAAMAAJ&q=victims+temporary+marriage+system+kashgaria&dq=victims+temporary+marriage+system+kashgaria&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UuKvUNGjBIuD0QH10IGQDA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA

Page 236

system of marriage which they felt was more convenient to them as there was a greater flexibility in the system ... 126) refers to temporary or short contract marriages as mutah he found this system prevalent in Kashgar where, according to him ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=VSPTAAAAMAAJ&q=temporary+marriages#search_anchor

Page 193

Possibly this may refer to the custom of temporary marriages which seems to prevail in most towns of Central Asia ... Kashgar is also noted in the East for its chaukans, young women with whom the traveller may readily form an alliance for the ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=DEHYAAAAMAAJ&q=Temporary+marriage+kashgar&dq=Temporary+marriage+kashgar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e-WvULLsH83O0QGJ5oHAAg&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAjhG

Page 194

The languages of Chinese Turkestan are Chinese, Jagatai Turki, Kashgar Turki and Kirghiz Turki. The percentage of illiteracy is very high. ... in a year because of divorce and temporary legal marriages. Among the Kirghiz women and the ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=-TgPAAAAIAAJ&q=divorce+temporary+legal+marriages#search_anchor

Page 294

21 Such as serial or temporary marriage among Muslims of Kashgar. See Catherine Borland McCartney, An English Lady in Chinese Turkestan (Hong Kong and London: Oxford University Press, 1985), p. 129. 22 See, for example, Dru C.

http://books.google.com/books?ei=e-WvULLsH83O0QGJ5oHAAg&id=fmptAAAAMAAJ&q=+temporary+marriage+kashgar#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?id=YZgpEtu111QC&q=custom+temporary+marriages#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?id=etcBAAAAMAAJ&q=temporary+marriages#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?id=pXlCAAAAIAAJ&q=temporary+marriages#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?id=cMYeAAAAIAAJ&q=temporary+marriages#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?id=CdE6Q_2yICIC&pg=PA155#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=CdE6Q_2yICIC&pg=PA156#v=onepage&q&f=false

Linda Benson, "lslamic Marriage and Divorce in Xinjiang: The Case of Kashgar and Khotan," Association for the Advancement of Central Asian Research 5/2 (Fall 1992)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1478-1913.1993.tb03577.x/abstract

Temporary marriage turki

http://books.google.com/books?id=MO3VKK5BVegC&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=--UdAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=yLs5AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA629#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=OZ4eAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA629#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA266#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA267#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA268#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA269#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA274#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA275#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA276#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA278#v=onepage&q&f=false

Chinese in xinjiang

http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA83#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA84#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA85#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA87#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=geYSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA328#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA267#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=cF4lMj8skvoC&pg=PA275#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=KksNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA77#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=dWlCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA77#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=AtwMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA921#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=AtwMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA954#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=J1gMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA87#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=7O00AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA87#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=u0sNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA38#v=onepage&q&f=false

Kuoofra (talk) 22:10, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Rulers[edit]

Karluk turkification of kashgar

http://books.google.com/books?id=UB4uSVt3ulUC&pg=PA278#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=UB4uSVt3ulUC&pg=PA279#v=onepage&q&f=false

Kashgar was ruled by chagataid khans before the dzunghar conquest

http://books.google.com/books?id=AzG5llo3YCMC&pg=PA334#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=cYoHOqC7Yx4C&pg=PA572#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 18:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Kashgar's relations with Kokand[edit]

Andijanis from kokand frequently traded with or warred with the Qing overLashgar

http://books.google.com/books?id=9skBUtc0YTwC&pg=PA84#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=KTmO416hNQ8C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 07:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

History of kashgar[edit]

http://books.google.com/books?id=vWLRxJEU49EC&pg=PA458#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=hMJC0JSfBkEC&pg=PA13#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=zvoCv3h2QCsC&pg=PA155#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 04:23, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Pictures of Manchu and Han officials and soldiers in Kashgar during the Qing dynasty.

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/en/museum_exhibitions/encyclopedia/china/traditional_mode_of_life/clothes/mens_clothes/

http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/05/27/through-a-lens-darkly-12-the-chinese-martial-arts-and-local-government-yamen-runners-clerks-jailers-and-executioners/

a little shortcut...[edit]

Hi, don't forget that before Islam, the region converted massly to manicheism and nestorianism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.46.156.98 (talk) 12:21, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Russian incident with Uyghur prostitutes in Kashgar in January of 1900[edit]

An anti-Russian riot occured in Kashgar in January of 1900 when Russians consorted with Turki (Uyghur) prostitutes.

On page 124

http://books.google.com/books?id=lTn-AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA124#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DgIAQAAIAAJ&q=Russian+couriers+three+Cossacks+Russian+customs+native+prostitutes+Kashgar&dq=Russian+couriers+three+Cossacks+Russian+customs+native+prostitutes+Kashgar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3BRHU5mhAYnJsQSQ9IGQCA&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAQ

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bbr5AQAAQBAJ&pg=PT126&dq=Russian+couriers+three+Cossacks+Russian+customs+native+prostitutes+Kashgar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3BRHU5mhAYnJsQSQ9IGQCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Russian%20couriers%20three%20Cossacks%20Russian%20customs%20native%20prostitutes%20Kashgar&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 22:12, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

PRC section[edit]

The PRC section is quite unbalanced, and reads as if it were from the pov of the govt officials. For example, it largely misrepresents the WaPo article that's cited. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ тʌʟк 15:07, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

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Old city[edit]

It would be great to have section or even a separate article on the pre-demolition old city, what it looked like and its architectural significance. There seems to be debate on its cultural relevance and the reasons for its demolition.Ballystrahan (talk) 10:09, 12 September 2020 (UTC)